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Post by Village Idiot on Nov 18, 2008 7:41:55 GMT 10
Observations of an outsider, looking in.
Tim sailed well to win.
Delfs start planing at about the same time as an Impulse, about 9 knots. Other OKs start planing at about 11 knots (standard downwind angles).
Big triangle courses are pointless and boring in under 12 knots.
* Prediction for Nationals. Leading boat at first mark will often be a bigger skipper who will be forced to sail well above the rhumb line on the first downwind as the single-file parade all push high to overtake. A little prick in an Ice Breaker, like Nick Gray will be the only one able to slide thru to leeward and gain heeps. Very predictable scenario.
The finish line exclusion zone often wrecks races and induces a soldiers course (ala the final race). Or ruins the day of those forced to sail around the disadvantaged end.
Cracker's blitz of the second race (early race sunday) is an ominous sign for Sunshine's anticipated seabreezes.
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Post by aus729 on Nov 18, 2008 9:49:15 GMT 10
Not all bigger skippers sail high, that is the advantage of the Delf, it can be sailed low as well.
Roger is an expert at it.
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Post by Glenn AUS 719 on Nov 18, 2008 10:18:54 GMT 10
As a big sailor with an old boterill, I think that I will just stay home and watch a movie. At least this way I can start saving for a delf or icebreaker.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2008 12:21:57 GMT 10
This little prick in an Icebreaker wishes it were that easy to sail past Andre and Roger
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Post by Village Idiot on Nov 18, 2008 13:15:56 GMT 10
Even tho it was a pretty specific prediction I was really speaking in quite general terms.
The 90kg+ guys will generally have an advantage upwind and are more likely to get their first. Unless the guy winning, be it Roger, Andre or anyone else gets a significant break the usual triangle course configuration will see them follow the standard arc wide above the rhumb-line trying maintain their air, irrespective of their weight.
Fresher winds allow more opportunity to drive low as soon as boats can plane down on a gust. In the light stuff however the broad downwind angles really make a race quite predictable and at times frustrating as most guys seem to know only one way to pass. The competition of who can sail highest on a run before everyone square runs back down to the mark is really quite tedious.
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Post by aus716 on Nov 18, 2008 13:38:11 GMT 10
VI are you still on about triangles (LOL) The races on the w/e were baby sized, hardly had time to capsize between marks. Seriously though I liked the triangles, it was I think risky in the conditions to go low, which I did, as you are relying on there being enough pressure to make it wothwhile. Also I do hate luffing matches, so I get my delf and I go low most of the time. I thought Mark and Joel showed some laser learned talent downwind they were very fast. ( and they were not sailing delfs or icebreakers)
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Post by aus716 on Nov 18, 2008 13:42:02 GMT 10
VI I agree with your comments about the Start Finish line exclusion, with other classes starting I think you need to do this. However, in single fleet racing it is sooo unneccessary. I understand it is not a set in stone rule but the decision is up to the Race Com. At the Nat's we will not need it.
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Post by Glenn AUS 719 on Nov 18, 2008 15:12:15 GMT 10
Regarding start finish lines, will they be outside the course? ie starts below the bottom mark and finishes above the finish mark.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2008 19:53:25 GMT 10
As a big sailor with an old boterill, I think that I will just stay home and watch a movie. At least this way I can start saving for a delf or icebreaker. This whole idea that hull shape determines downwind boatspeed doesnt sit too well with me - sure different hulls require a slight change to technique and some have more potential downwind than others but reading the AUS forum about delfs always planing at different windspeeds to all other ok's I'm hoping you guys are not serious?. I'm not the fastest downwind ok sailor in the world but I think I'm learning slowly. # 1) sort out technique. Steering, trim, heel, board height, vang tension. Get any of these wrong and it won't matter a sh1t what shape your hull is. And they need to be perfect - some of this is not obvious when jumping in from other classes. # 2) Get a sail with lots of area in the head. Its amazing how much inside the max dimensions up top some "popular" ok sail designs are. Area up top is gas downwind me thinks. # 3) Get a mast which is super stiff sideways (great upwind), and when it rotates 90 degrees or so downwind its great there too...any pressure variation results in acceleration a lot sooner... # 4) Maybe after all above are near perfect have a look at hull shape. Volume being nice if you are big. But don't assume another sailor will always beat you downwind because they have a delf or an icebreaker!! Seems to me that hull shape is well down the list of speed producing factors downwind, if we needed any proof of that in NZL it was Dan Slater winning our nationals this year in a completely unproven one-off plywood boat built to near-minimum dimensions with no correctors when he was 90-something kilo's...We all need to focus less on hulls and just do the hard hours on the water to perfect our downwind technique and also develop fast rigs... I think you will find that R and A Blasse have spent a few hours working on their downwind ok sailing over the years...and that a "fast" downwind hull i.e delf is just icing on the cake......or I could be completely wrong. Just my 2 cents... Mark |
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Post by Village Idiot on Nov 19, 2008 11:19:11 GMT 10
At the risk of caving in like a complete wuss I must say I do agree with you Mark. However, I also agree with one of your first statements that some shapes have more potential than others.
In regards to Dan winning I would say it was a fantastic testament to his ability to overcome a handicap like that to win. Tongue-in-cheek I say imagine how much he would have won by if he sailed a Delfs? ;D
Perhaps it may be true that the percieved potential of some shapes is exagerated by the lack of potential of others. It really is horses for courses and each shape has it's prefered conditions. I just think that if you could pick any advantage that your boat might have over another, I think many guys would go for early planing.
Early planing can definitely be achieved with better technique and increased effort but I can see some boats travelling through the water in ways that I could never achieve in a doggy shape.
I do concede that the slowest boat I have sailed downwind was also the fastest upwind. Having a solid first beat is of utmost importance if you want a good finish result however, as they say, "the big races are won downwind".
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Post by aus738 on Nov 19, 2008 11:56:21 GMT 10
I can see this debate going in circles for a while  . I sailed a Delfs hull in a number of regattas in Europe in 1984 (yes that long ago!) in the days of aluminium masts and weight jackets. I weighed 75kg then and carried around 10kg of weight in the jacket (so yes about what I weigh now!) and found it hard to punch the hull upwind in a chop. Downwind it was fast, faster than my own hull in Aus (KA 546 built by Terry Belair), but overall it seemed to even out. I certainly didn't feel then that the hull shape either advantaged or disadvantaged me over the course of a regatta. Conversely at the time I felt my own hull (KA 546) was quick upwind and not so quick downwind. But the gains/losses were marginal and more than offset by other factors during a race - ie "software" failures. No doubt room for improvements in my technique off the breeze. So - I guess I'm with Mark on this one - any advantages given by a particular hull shape in some conditions/points of sail are generally offset by disadvantages in others. I look forwards to testing my new hull against you guys in the future! |
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Post by aus738 on Nov 19, 2008 12:37:18 GMT 10
Looks like this discussion should be moved to the Hulls section now...  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2008 12:43:10 GMT 10
Looking at Tom P's Delfs last weekend, and thinking it's very nice for a 30-year old boat, got me wondering how this is suddenly flavour of the month when these boats have been around for years.
While the Delfs looks to be a nice boat for the big guys, how much of this is just due to the fact that they are being sailed by the guys who are serious enough to buy a new boat? It's not just that the boat is fast because it's new, but because buying a new boat tends to go along with a lot of other things like going to big regattas, buying new masts, sails and foils and perhaps sailing more?
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Post by Village Idiot on Nov 19, 2008 13:48:25 GMT 10
I note these pasages were printed in Completely OK.
"The OK Dinghy is different from many one-design classes in that it is kept one-design by a set of measurement rules rather than by a set of plans. Rule 1.5 states “all boats shall be built in accordance with the class rules and the measurement form.” Rule 1.1 states”...within these rules, variations in the construction of the boat are permitted.”
This has been the fundamental ethos of the class since its inception. All OK Dinghies built need only be alike “in all respects affecting performance.” This has allowed builders to try different construction techniques and different lay-ups without the need to conform to restrictive plans. And yet boats built continents and decades apart and using widely different techniques and theories finish next to each other at the highest level.
Within the rules there is considerable latitude for the OK Dinghy sailor to develop his own ideas of hull shape, rig and layout and to personalize the boat. Yet the rules are tight enough to make it unlikely that a new breakthrough will cause well-founded boats to become uncompetitive.
Everyone has their own idea of what is the best design, but in truth a wide range of very different hull shapes have won the world championship in recent years. No hull, rig or trend tends to dominate for very long."
However, I reckon if you can sail a Delf well enough up the work to be in the mix at the top mark, and if your downwind technique doesn't suck you would be feeling pretty freak'n confident.
The NSW Delf owners have no complaints about upwind performance. However, I do think the Delfs look a bit "sticky" in under 6 knots. But who cares?
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Post by Glenn AUS 719 on Nov 19, 2008 16:59:12 GMT 10
I would agree with 673 on his statement about the new hulls are bought by serious sailors who are already highly skilled. And naturally when you buy a new hull there is no reason to fit it with old gear.
Older boats are most likely just as quick in the right conditions but because they may have not had the TLC over the years they are a bit slow. As the cost of a new boat is not feasible for myself I will have to upgrade my 15 year old boat and test the theory. Mind you I have still a lot to learn about how to get the best out of an OK.
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. I sailed a Delfs hull in a number of regattas in Europe in 1984 (yes that long ago!) in the days of aluminium masts and weight jackets. I weighed 75kg then and carried around 10kg of weight in the jacket (so yes about what I weigh now!) and found it hard to punch the hull upwind in a chop. Downwind it was fast, faster than my own hull in Aus (KA 546 built by Terry Belair), but overall it seemed to even out. I certainly didn't feel then that the hull shape either advantaged or disadvantaged me over the course of a regatta. 