Working the sheet upwind

[Village Idiot]

There you go Andre. That's what I was talking about. Here is another World Champ who doesn't cleat the sheet:

"I also tend not to cleat my mainsheet as Iike to play it a lot upwind, so it pays to have relatively strong arms so you can hang onto it."- Karl

This is why i was wondering about Peter Milnes 4:1 mainsheet. Does anyone else have an opinion on whether there is advantage in not cleating the sheet upwind?

[aus729]

Whatever works for you.

Me being the type that did not sail for 10 weeks prior to the worlds would not be able to play with it for that long.

4 to 1 means a lot more sheet downwind, a lot harder to pull in when you need to stop falling in.

[tim]

Hi Paul,

I can't help but think that you are kicking a dead cat (see avatar ;D) with the 4 to 1 thing.

It seems to me to be a personnal preference and in my mind any perceived benefits are outweighed by the compromises (extra rope, loss of feel etc etc).

Maybe you should give it try and let us know.

By the way, here's the outlook for the Opening day at Wangi on Saturday:


Hunter Coastal Waters, Seal Rocks to Broken Bay and 60nm seawards:
Wednesday until midnight: Wind: S/SE increasing to 15/20 knots in the morning, then reaching 20/25 knots in the afternoon and evening. Sea: 1 to 2 metres, reaching 2 to 2.5 metres afternoon and evening. Swell: E/SE about 1 metre, rising to 1 to 1.5 metres later.
Thursday: Wind: E/SE 20/25 knots.Sea: 2 to 2.5 metres. Swell: E increasing to 2 to 2.5 metres,
Friday Outlook: Wind: E/SE 20/30 knots, increasing to 30/40 knots, possibly stronger. Heavy rain developing.
Saturday Outlook: Wind: SE/S 30/40 knots, possibly stronger. Easing during day.

I might fit the extra pulley just for the day!


Chow!

[tim]

As far as the cleating the mainsheet is concerned, I find that it depends on how strong and steady the breeze is and how flat the water is.

Light to moderate breezes (particularly when there are gusts) it often pays to keep the sheet in your hands (I often change traveller and sheet at the same time).

In the fresher breezes, for the most part I cleat it and make changes by quickly uncleating and recleating. The exception to this is in really gusty or wavy conditions where it is important to dump main quickly. Here I will throw off a lot of main quickly and retrieve it almost in the same action. I don't think this would work as well with a 4 to 1 system.

[Deleted]

At risk of exposing my ignorance (although that's probably obvious by now...), I'd appreciate being enlightened about this whole working the sheet thing.

Having the sheet in hand in the lighter stuff makes sense to me as it gives a bit more feel and lets you react quickly - for example sheet out a bit to power up through waves and then point up in the flat bits etc - at least that's what I do and it seems 3:1 is fine for that.

Once you're powered up, though, and a gust hits - what do you do? If you ease sheet the rig powers up, not down. Obviously if you get caught out and have to throw the sheet to stay upright that's another story, but that's not really fast is it?

My own approach has been to try to set the sheet such that the leech tension is in that range where it feels like the rig can react a bit to changes in pressure, and not play it much at all. When the breeze is right up I probably fiddle with the cunningham more than the sheet in order to open the upper leech without having to sheet out and have the sail get deeper. Am I way off the mark?

[Deleted]

In my opinion what you say about powering up when you ease the sheet in the light is right.

However when you get to the stage where you're using a lot of cunningham (say above 15-18knts) when you ease the sheet the mast still stays relatively well bent back. Then when you ease the sheet you put twist in the sail (leech) depowering it, remember tho more twist = less height. I'll use different sheet tensions for different sea states as well as for changes in wind velocity. For instance say on one tack you are going straight into choppy, confused waves, then I'll sail with more twist on that tack (with the trav up to maintain height, I find this rig set up is much more tolerant of the large changes in apparent wind angle caused by changes in boat speed as you go up and over the waves ie you stay reletively flat the whole time and don't go sideways). on the other tack where you are going across the waves I'll use more sheet tension and less trav (trav out). On both tacks I'll also sheet more on for power and ease the cunningham if the wind decreases and vice versa if it increases. I reckon I'm prob only talking about easing and pulling the sheet in and out about 2-3 inches. It helps to have a big kick arse ratchet block which is nice and grippy. I use a big harken one...it's also nice and heavy and helps get the boat up to weight.

Anyway that's my 2c for what it's worth, it works for me and my rig set up.

[Deleted]

Thanks Karl! That makes sense. I am coming to the conclusion that I've been oversheeting in a misguided attempt to keep the sail flat. Sounds like I need to get to the gym...

[Deleted]

How you sheet mainly depends on your rig set up, by this I mean the mast and sail collectively. For instance in a good breeze look at Nick, he generally sheets hard on with the trav right out...on the other hand Jorgen travs up and uses less sheet tension. Both these guys are fast upwind in a breeze. Both these guys will have different rig set ups.

The best you can do is go out and line up against someone and just try a few things out. General rule tho in big breezes if trav up use twist, if trav down sheet on hard....in both instances use quite a bit of cunno. Which method is faster will most likely depend on the sea state and your rig.

[tim]

It's also important to consider what actions (or reactions) are required when you're hit by a gust (or a wave).

Something has to change or the boat will react by healing and loading up the rudder (this is not necessarily a bad reaction as it will eventually make the boat round up and naturally depower).

The trick is to feather the boat in a more controlled manner, aiming to keep the feel of the rudder as light as possible.

Easing the main slightly in reaction to the first seconds of a gust allows you to feather to windward without the heavy helm associated with being overpowered. It doesn't greatly damage your sail shape as you're only easing out a bit of sheet, and as a gust is true wind (rather than apparent), a wider sail angle is good.

At the same time you steer the boat (or should I say allow the boat to come up) to windward to the point where you can feel things starting to come off the boil. At this stage the sheet is tightened and the boat is trimmed to a lower course.

The same applies to dealing with waves, the constant sail trimming helps you to steer through the waves with minimum weather helm.

[Deleted]

Can I just point out that discussions like this are why this forum is a good idea?

Some of this suggests that the 4:1 mainsheet is not such a bad idea for the more lightly-built among us. Mind you I'm not sure I'd want to have 10m of rope in the boat or have to trim armfuls of sheet in and out downwind. I reckon if we were allowed to go 1:1 or 2:1 off the boom then it might be worthwhile, but that's a moot point.

[Village Idiot]

Even though Peter Milne won a worlds with it i tend to agree with Andre, it would be a liability downwind. However working the sheet upwind does require a lot of strength and obviously the 4:1 made this option workable for PM.

What I am starting to realise is that our rigs are not as "automatic" as some of us thought. I think I need to work on paying more attention to sheeting and the angle of attack in gusty conditions.

Tearing the boat around with brute force on the tiller or waiting for the round-up must be slow.

[Deleted]

I agree that 4:1 is a liability, however the normal 3;1 with a good ratchet block is not that hard to hang on to I think. Maybe something that makes it easier for me is the fact that the mainsheet rubs over the top of my hiking straps providing a bit more friction. My hiking straps tend to be in a little different position compared with most others as a result of my laser background. It means that I need to repair my hiking straps every season but the benefits from more continual main trimming are worth it.

[tim]

It's also very important to have good reference points so that you are able to constantly duplicate the correct settings.

The important ones are traveller position, Boom height (relative to the deck) and boom width (relative to the gunnel). When you are in tune with these settings, it's easy to switch from one mode to another (eg more twist = traveller up, boom in, boom raised).

[Deleted]

It should be noted that just because the mainsheet gets cleated it does not mean it doesn't get adjusted. If you have a good ratchet (and I prefer the lewmar one) and good harken alloy cleats it is easy to adjust at anytime in and out of the cleat. why waste energy holding it when you do not have to. Also I have yet to figure out the best way to adjust the traveller with the mainsheet in hand as well.

[Deleted]

Ah you see the importance of fitness - if you're fit you've got the energy to waste and will be quicker than someone who doesn't trim their main as constantly.....especially true in windier conditions. But yes if you don't have the energy to waste I can see that it may be better to pace yourself ;D

Sept 9, 2008 17:38:23 GMT 10 @greg said:

It should be noted that just because the mainsheet gets cleated it does not mean it doesn't get adjusted. If you have a good ratchet (and I prefer the lewmar one) and good harken alloy cleats it is easy to adjust at anytime in and out of the cleat. why waste energy holding it when you do not have to. Also I have yet to figure out the best way to adjust the traveller with the mainsheet in hand as well.